The ownership class and their mba lackeys have done a real bang up job not only separating the two cultures, but getting them both to think through the mental model of business and profit whenever they’re pondering how to practice their profession.
Fucking finally we’re talking sense.
As a STEM graduate, I would much rather hold hands with an econ graduate than a business graduate. Economists can do real good for the world, while MBAs seem to be mostly harmful.
Economists can do real good for the world
If you put 10 economists in a room, you’ll get 11 opinions.
As an econ major with a BS, please don’t lump me in with the econ majors who went to business school for a MBA. I like cool math, not venture capitalism cancer.
Prove your purity
The only thing funny about the Laffer curve is how little it now matters.
It was used to justify Reagnomics, which then immediately proved we weren’t nearly as high on the Laffer curve as we assumed. Because of this, we have concrete evidence that lowering taxes on the rich doesn’t increase government revenues.
Yet we’re still doing that 50 years later. Despite the only vaguely scientific thing behind it proving it doesn’t work decades ago.
Imagine being in a catholic family, reading the Bible, and always walking away thinking that Judas did the right thing (despite everything else the Bible says). That’s US economic policy for the last 50 years.
Again!
When your econ program is in a business college, they push the MBA hardcore. So glad I never entertained that.
Good, an MBA is just a degree in exploitation. I will fight you over this take like a goddamn racoon over the last piece of food in the dumpster.
But what if you’re right and I want to join?
People are often young and naive when they choose what to study. There are some decent people and some assholes among business majors, just like with most other groups of people if you look closely.
There are certainly nice and polite people everywhere, but decency is a matter of ethics in this context, I would say. At least that’s how I’m reading it.
Like I’m a nice guy, but I’m not going to pretend it’s decent of me to replace data workers with software automation, even if it’s just the natural outcome of me putting my education into practice.
Econ is for soothsayers, idiots, cultists and abusers, don’t bother to change my mind.
the entrails say… “something, something, irrational exuberance”
I find the field is only good when combined with humanities as a focal point, e.g. economic history or economic anthropology. It needs grounded otherwise it goes full American Psycho.
Yeah but an MBA is also a post graduate degree. A huge chunk of MBAs have undergrad degrees in something like STEM or humanities.
And with the power of that knowledge they decided to specialize and get a masters of exploitation.
The real problem is believing there’s an objective difference between art, science, humanities, etc. It’s an artificial division under capitalism between what’s directly useful for profit, control, etc. and what’s not.
Regardless, yeah fuck business school. That’s got no value to anybody.
Everyone should have a strong base in STEM and the humanities. It irks me to no end when STEM majors can’t write, communicate, or understand a wider historical context just as it irks me when humanities majors claim to not understand basic algebra or scientific concepts. It’s fine to have a preference, but an expert engineer should have a passing familiarity with philosophy and ethics, just as a historian should have a passing familiarity with scientific laws and mathematics.
Then there’s business majors who have no familiarity with anything at all. If I had my druthers, “business school” wouldn’t even be an option at a university.
Not to knock college undergrad core curriculum, but that strong base ought to be acquired before graduating high school.
That’s what I’ve been saying since I was in high school. Going into college, the first year felt like High School 2.0. My English professor outright asked, “Why are you in this class? I have nothing I can teach you.” Funny how we can take a test after admission to show us which subjects we need remedial classes for, but no test for us to opt-out of subjects that we’ve already mastered. Still gotta take our money and waste our time because, you know, “requirements.”
Edit: I’ve heard some people say there are opt-out tests some places, but that clearly isn’t the default. Not at the community college I went to.
No can do, gotta teach students how to pass the tests that gives the school federal funding
It irks me to no end when STEM majors can’t write, communicate,
I do have to say that humanities majors do not seem to be any better. Ask most of them to provide definitions that they use, or to communicate how they arrive at their conclusions, and quite often they will be unable to do either.
but an expert engineer should have a passing familiarity with philosophy and ethics
Why? In particular, why should an engineer have an understanding of how to study systems of ethics, and what first- and second-order ethics frameworks there are?
just as a historian should have a passing familiarity with scientific laws and mathematics.
As a mathematician by education, I would also like to ask, why? What would an average historian gain from knowing that a continuous image of a compact is a compact, or that, if a diffeomorphism’s rank is less than the maximum possible one, we can construct a diffeomorphism of the same degree of continuity that works with fewer coordinates in either the domain, the codomain, or both?
I think we have different definitions of what passing knowledge, and familiarity. I think what OP is saying is that folks should leave college knowing how to think and reason mathmatically, philosophically, and scientifically. Everyone knows you don’t actually learn anything in undergrad, but you should at least know how to problem solve in your field. OP is just saying that maybe that problem solving should cast a wider net, I think.
Why should they? Everything is multidisciplinary. Even a pure mathematician needs to know how to communicate their ideas within their field.
I think we have different definitions of what passing knowledge, and familiarity.
The examples of math knowledge that I provided are taught in the first semester/first couple of semesters of university, and are covered in introductions to calculus. It is ‘passing knowledge’.
I think what OP is saying is that folks should leave college knowing how to think and reason mathmatically, philosophically, and scientifically.
Sure, but how would being able to think and reason ‘philosophically’ (whatever that means) would help, for example, a mathematician, a software developer, or an electronics engineer?
And, again, how would the sort of knowledge that I mentioned be helpful to an average historian?Also, how much of a STEM curriculum would you be willing to replace with humanities and art courses?
Everyone knows you don’t actually learn anything in undergrad
Huh? What? No.
I learned quite a bit at that time in university. This claim is honestly baffling.OP is just saying that maybe that problem solving should cast a wider net, I think.
What professional problems would humanities courses help STEM specialists solve?
Even a pure mathematician needs to know how to communicate their ideas within their field.
How, and which humanities disciplines would help with that better than practice with communication in the context of engaging in that field which already does train those skills?
It has also been my experience that humanities and art specialists do not communicate better than STEM specialists. Quite the opposite, actually.
Stem major checking in for an arts/humanities major to hold hands with
deleted by creator
Businesses would not be terrible if business education is actually tempered with some humanities. In fact, I am strongly of the opinion that every field of study should have some humanities component to them. None of the fields exist in vacuum, we have to have at least, some appreciation of other fields, lest we risk creating silos in the name of organization. And that is precisely happening in this age of hyper-specialization.
100%.
Children are always told that they could become a scientist or engineer one day and that this would be a great thing to achieve. Scientists and engineers are so highly regarded, yet they are often complicit in creating the necessary technology and machinery for most of the worlds worst projects. Climate change, plastic pollution, nuclear weapons, are all created by the worlds smartest and all the while they’re being told they’re doing a great job and bettering the world.
Ethics needs to be mandatory in all STEM studies. Jesus at least just make them watch Oppenheimer.
Ethics is largely mandatory for engineering majors (source: am finishing my bachelor’s in electrical engineering), but the first job or project you take will ask you to throw that out the window. (Source: family members who are also engineers)
There are two areas of safety considered: Operator/client safety, and regulatory compliance. All other safeguards are optional and ignoring them is encouraged.
As a civil engineer with only a tiny bit of experience cos I switched to software. That holds true. Environmental and other ethical concerns are not even an afterthought in vast majority of engineering projects.
As a civil engineer with only a tiny bit of experience cos I switched to software.
Holy shit, I’m not the only one?!
I think this is true of most civil engineering majors I know. After getting their degrees, very few actually ended up working in civil engineering because the money was better in software or other tech.
Good point, there was also an ethics module in my engineering studies, but it didn’t really encourage you to think about where you’re employed, just what to do what you’re there. Which is useless
I had very little ethics being taught in my academic career. Most of what i know is high school level philosophy (from a country that still used to care about that stuff but aiming to change it soon). I would have loved more humanity courses. On the other hand, if you had given me the choice between a course in my speciality and a humanity course, I would have chose the specialty one every time
They would be terrible anyway, because competition rewards business fucking over their employees and customers.
Funny you should say that, because those very humanities aspects of what I studied, Economics, lead STEM students to disparage it as a non-scientific field built of gospel and tenets. As if Humanities diminished the quality of the research and teaching within the Economics field.
So while I agree, and it’s good to see you being upvoted, in a different scenario the application of your thoughts about this will lead the person sharing their experience to get massively downvoted in an attempt to shame them for studying a “soft science”.
Big gripe of mine is the distinction of “soft” and “hard” science. I’m a linguist and it surprises people that I had to take advanced statistics, set theory, know the basics of acoustics, and have an understanding of calculus. But just because a field requires nuance and observational data doesn’t mean it’s automatically less rigorous than a field that deals exclusively with numbers. Can’t exclusively rely on statistical models to draw conclusions about economic trends or linguistic phenomena because the economy and language don’t exist outside of human society
Exactly! So many people assume the science of economics is unfounded because of what some purported “economists” say online or because of some already-irrelevant methodologies the science has abandoned for years already…
The most egregious problem being assuming that the methodology isn’t sound and scientific, and that it instead depends on the whims of the researcher (here they would place researcher in quotation marks, I imagine).
I have had to do game theory, statistics, econometrics, data science (thanks to my chosen specialisation), a lot of math especially about optimisations and linear algebra… And the quality of the academic research is empirical. Rarely will you even find a paper that only uses qualitative data in economics, except maybe in the behavioural economics field. Most often we use natural experiments to replicate RCTs within a macro environment, or double-blind experiments to investigate an economic agent’s systemic preferences and responses within a micro environment…
People who complain about the superficiality of the “soft sciences” have never stepped foot in a class beyond the very basics of that subject taught in highschool. They therefore project their current knowledge on the entire field, marring it…
I really do wish humanities were not actually considered as ‘lesser’ to the sciences. But I have actually found it to be greater of the sciences, simply because of the importance and the difficulty of questions it tackles. I have spent a fairly long time reading on philosophy, history, economics. I am not an expert, in fact, I am really far from it, but I have really come to an understanding the importance of these fields. But that’s just me. Most just consider them not important because they don’t understand. I just hope that we can rectify with better academic curriculum.
Part of the issue is that the quality of the research is often really low, just a jumble of untested and untestable hypotheses that certain ‘scientists’ in these fields try to push and that get traction because they sound good. On some level it comes with the subject matter that is typically very hard to research, but too many people in these fields are entirely lacking in scientific rigour.
Source: I studied sociology and history in university.
Businesses would not be terrible if business education is actually tempered with some humanities.
That’s obviously not true. For businesses to not be terrible, they would have to not operate on the profit motive, which is impossible.
In fact, I am strongly of the opinion that every field of study should have some humanities component to them.
Why? And what disciplines do you want to force people to pass exams in, even if they have no bearing on a person’s skills in the area that they actually chose?
we have to have at least, some appreciation of other fields
Also, why?
That’s obviously not true. For businesses to not be terrible, they would have to not operate on the profit motive, which is impossible.
There are many approaches for a business to be both good and also make profit. Just as an example, in the periods of comfort, they can focus only on profit. However, in the times of crisis, businesses can instead focus on doing social good, instead of profit, until things go back to normal. This can be in the form helping people in need during floods, hurricanes, etc. Of course, there are many approaches to this and I am giving just an illustrative examples, but thing is many small businesses around the world do this because many people put humanity first and profit second, especially in the times of crises.
And what disciplines do you want to force people to pass exams in, even if they have no bearing on a person’s skills in the area that they actually chose?
I am really sorry if you don’t enjoy exams, because I also hate exams. To make my argument about why, I believe, we need to be educated in humanities, first I just want to focus on the question what is the purpose of education. I strongly believe that the education helps us to be a better human being, beyond just being a better doctor or a better software developer or a better engineer. Being a good human being, I believe, transcends being a skilled doctor or engineer, etc. I am going to try to give an example from Civil Engineering to try to illustrate it. In India (where I am from and have been living my entire life), there are still villages where the access to basic necessities like clean water, electricity are either absent or rarely available. Now, when the government is planning a project to provide a more reliable access to these resources, the responsibility falls on the Engineering Team to design the project, including costs and the benefits. Beyond just the monetary cost-benefit analysis, or maybe the environmental impact (which are inevitable), there are also societal issues that are important, but are left out during the planning? But, a study in humanities will give these issues the weight it deserves. For example, caste system is a major issue in India, with population of even the tiniest villages are split into two or sometimes more groups: the so-called “upper” (let’s just called them oppressors) castes and the “lower” (let’s call them oppressed) castes. So, as it happens, the oppressors might establish a monopoly over the fresh water that reaches the village due to aforementioned project. So, despite the project providing some benefit, to the oppressors, it provides almost no benefit to the oppressed class. No engineer would consider these kinds of societal issues while designing the project, despite knowing about the casteism and understanding it’s consequences because they are not educated to combine their engineering skills and know-how with the casteism. Systematic Humanities education might actually help Engineers to understand these issues at a deeper level and might inform them on how to proceed with the project, while at least trying to mitigate the caste situation in some way.
I am trying to go beyond the exams and the academic degrees for this because the most of the life of an engineer (or a doctor, etc) is spent on practice, i.e., designing, planning and executing projects (or something equivalent). These projects should not just have economic utility, but also social utility or at least should not have negative social utility. Consider the impact of plastics, fossil fuel and their pollution on the society and individuals. However, for decades, we gladly kept building new roads to accommodate more vehicles purchased by rich people, despite knowing about them. My hope is that with a humanities education, it will make more engineers to evaluate the social utility of their projects and not just the economic utility. One interesting theory that I came across was in a book called “Development As Freedom” by Amartya Sen, a Noble Prize winning economist. In the book, he puts forward the idea that “Economic Development must increase the freedoms of individuals and society”. In essence, contrary to popular measures of economic development like GDP, Per Capita Income, he straight-up wants to quantify (or at least qualitatively) the impact of economic and market activity through their social utility.
In essence, all human activity has the goal to serve the humans (both individual and society), this world and the nature we live in. But, if we don’t appreciate this at all, can we really work towards benefiting as many people at possible, while at the same time, try to minimize or even offset the damage (both social and environmental) caused, without a humanities education, that by definition deals with humanity, both individually and as a collective?
P.S. Sorry for the long reply, but I really wanted to try to present my argument in greater detail. Not in the hope of changing your mind, but just to make you understand where my stance on this matter is coming from. Also, I am not saying that everyone should be an expert in all the fields of humanities. All I am trying to say is that with a little bit of humanities education, I just want everyone to gain some appreciation of humanities and what they do and how important it really is.
There are many approaches for a business to be both good and also make profit
That’s literally not possible. Making profit means that a business is robbing the rest of society, including its workers.
The presence of the profit motive in an economy has a bunch of other consequences, including things, like the lack of guaranteed housing, which is also ghoulish.Just as an example, in the periods of comfort, they can focus only on profit. However, in the times of crisis, businesses can instead focus on doing social good
That’s literally not possible. The owners of a business are systemically only interested in a business so long as it provides them with net wealth over their investments, which requires a business to be profitable.
There is no systemic interest for these owners to literally do something antithetical to maintaining their businesses and sacrifice profits for the common good. The only reason for them to do that would be if they were forced to. However, that would require another sufficiently powerful party to be interested in doing so.but thing is many small businesses around the world
Small businesses also have additional issues that prevent them from actually being net good for society, like the fact that they are less efficient and less technologically innovative.
I am really sorry if you don’t enjoy exams, because I also hate exams.
I do not hate exams. Exams are necessary.
The question is, what humanities and/or art disciplines would you force somebody who chose a STEM specialisation to take exams in to be allowed to graduate, and why?first I just want to focus on the question what is the purpose of education.
The purpose of education from the standpoint of a state or another sort of group is to reliably produce people capable of some specialised labour (and - usually - to instill them with a worldview that would make them more loyal to said group). Considering that it is states that organise serious education, that’s the only ‘purpose’ that matters.
I hope we are not going to conflate ‘purpose of smth’ with ‘reasons to appreciate smth’. I appreciate education quite a bit, and study almost every day.I strongly believe that the education helps us to be a better human being
I apologise, but this is rather wishy-washy.
What does ‘a better human being’ even mean? Why would that be in any way important for the people that you decide to force this opportunity to fail to graduate? Why would that be important for a given group that organises a given education effort? Why would that be important to the rest of a relevant society?Despite the ‘STEMlord’ stereotype of engineers, software developers, and people who do the ‘hard’ science-related stuff being horrible people, I do not think that humanities and art specialists are better. There is a lot of extremely heinous stuff that they say and that gets promoted a lot, including in education. So, I would not really say that humanities would help make a person ‘better’ in any sense that I would recognise as such.
beyond just being a better doctor or a better software developer or a better engineer.
Well, what I wanted from education is to be a better software developer and mathematician. So, if we are to consider my case, I neither wanted nor needed to be better at recognising that most people have no understanding of what idealism is, for example, and to have my degree hinge on taking a philosophy exam where the teacher couldn’t even give any workable definitions. That stuff is completely useless for me in both my personal life, and my professional activities, and has also contributed to me being less able to fit in - including on these very forums, - I would argue.
So, as it happens, the oppressors might establish a monopoly over the fresh water that reaches the village due to aforementioned project. So, despite the project providing some benefit, to the oppressors, it provides almost no benefit to the oppressed class. No engineer would consider these kinds of societal issues while designing the project, despite knowing about the casteism and understanding it’s consequences because they are not educated to combine their engineering skills and know-how with the casteism.
I don’t see how a humanities education would help here, especially in the case of low-level junior engineers (as opposed to senior and leading engineers). What actionable insight could be provided, by what humanities discipline(s), and how much of an engineering curriculum should be sacrificed for teaching those skills? Most importantly, why would engineers opt to use this insight for common good even if they reach it?
From what I can see, if the humanities courses are short, the engineers will not get much in terms of reliable knowledge that isn’t already covered through cultural osmosis. If the courses are long, it means that they get taught significantly less about engineering.These projects should not just have economic utility, but also social utility or at least should not have negative social utility.
Okay, but that’s not for a low-level engineer or developer to make any relevant decisions about, and a humanities education doesn’t mean that a person would be any more inclined to implement the solutions that have more social utility.
Consider the impact of plastics, fossil fuel and their pollution on the society and individuals. However, for decades, we gladly kept building new roads to accommodate more vehicles purchased by rich people, despite knowing about them.
Okay, but how would a more humanities-focused education of engineers/scientists/etc. improve things in this case? Do you have any evidence for relevant claims?
My hope is that with a humanities education, it will make more engineers to evaluate the social utility of their projects and not just the economic utility.
What would force or make them more inclined to evaluate the social utility in these cases? And what about the engineers/developers/etc. who do not get to make any relevant decisions? And how would humanities disciplines help in making these evaluations?
Also, it doesn’t actually require one to be educated in things like ‘is this ethics system an emotivist one?’ and ‘which of these legal documents has a higher priority?’ in order to want to improve people’s lives, nor does being educated in them make a person not a ghoul.Considering that humanities specialists - just like STEM specialists - are usually either horrible judges of social utility, or are just outright ghoulish, I don’t really see why one would think that humanities disciplines would change anything relevant.
One interesting theory that I came across was in a book called “Development As Freedom” by Amartya Sen, a Noble Prize winning economist. In the book, he puts forward the idea that “Economic Development must increase the freedoms of individuals and society”. In essence, contrary to popular measures of economic development like GDP, Per Capita Income, he straight-up wants to quantify (or at least qualitatively) the impact of economic and market activity through their social utility.
Is it an actual theory, or just some platitudes about wanting to study those things? Because if it’s the latter, then I fail to see the novelty, as many people have studied relevant things before him.
In essence, all human activity has the goal to serve the humans (both individual and society), this world and the nature we live in.
That is quite obviously not true. People very obviously do, in fact, do things with selfish goals. For example, business owners implementing solutions to profit at the expense of the rest of society, or NATO leaders maintaining a brutal colonial hold over the world.
No amount of humanities education is going to change what a person’s social and economical interests will be, which are the primary factors in people’s behaviour on a systemic level, I would argue.I feel like you are mistaking the forest for the trees. I am only throwing reasons on why I hold on this position. My point isn’t that by introducing humanities as mandatory, we will somehow magically transform our society into a utopia. My hope is basically just that it might change things for the better a little. Just because people are generally terrible doesn’t mean we cannot work for making them better even if it is just a little bit. I believe that by educating them we might hope that at least a few might make better choices or not. It is better to try and fail than not try at all. Of course, I am not saying this is the only right or even a right approach.
I feel like you are mistaking the forest for the trees.
I am not sure what you mean by this.
My point isn’t that by introducing humanities as mandatory, we will somehow magically transform our society into a utopia.
Sure. But you seem to be assuming at least one of the following:
- Forcing STEM students to take humanities exams will make them better at evaluating social utility of their professional decisions.
- Forcing STEM students to take humanities exams will make them evaluate social utility of their professional decisions.
- Forcing STEM students to take humanities exams will make them use the aforementioned evaluation in a way that would improve social utility, compared to how things are now.
- Forcing STEM students to take humanities exams will increase the frequency with which they can make the aforementioned evaluations, even as junior professionals.
- STEM students are not forced to take humanities exams enough.
That is quite a few assumptions, and, considering that humanities (and art) specialists do not seem to be significantly less ghoulish than STEM specialists, I do not think that any of them have a good basis.
Also, how much of STEM curricula do you want to replace with humanities courses? Just one semester of a bunch of disparate disciplines is not going to give them any useful skills, so the courses have to be more thorough, and the students will come out knowing less about STEM fields that they come to study.
My hope is basically just that it might change things for the better a little. Just because people are generally terrible doesn’t mean we cannot work for making them better even if it is just a little bit.
Sure, but how would that improve things? What are the expected mechanisms that would cause things to change for the better? Humanities (and art) do not seem to make people significantly less supportive of things like genocides, colonialism, and capitalism.
What seems to be a better alternative is not forcing humanities and art courses on STEM students, but attempting to instill them with relevant worldviews - ones which oppose the likes of the aforementioned atrocities.I believe that by educating them we might hope that at least a few might make better choices or not.
Humanities education doesn’t make humanities specialists not be awful. Why assume that teaching less of it to STEM students - at the expense of the knowledge about their fields of specialty - would make them either do more of social utility evaluation, or do that evaluation better, or use that evaluation more frequently and for the common good?
MBAs have destroyed the world. We used to have good paying jobs and affordable rent.
I’m sure there’s probably a few good MBA’s out there, using applied psychology to trick assholes into spending their money on the greater good.
I’ve never met one but, statistically, you know?
Hi, 'tis me, leftist with a business degree and minor in psychology that works in marketing. 🙃
“You know, spending money on welfare and education is a lot less expensive than prisons and having your stuff stolen.”
I’ve considered working in marketing, but I refuse to use my powers for evil.
“Leftist”
.world account
Let me guess, you would have voted for Obama a third time if you could?
The world is powered by a collective STEAM engine:
Science, Technology, Engineering, Arts, Mathematics.
Arts is such a fundamental component for communicating advancements and inspiring the creativity that fuels further discoveries.
But, but KPI’s are how we know line go up.
Checkmate, artists!
The artists can assist by drawing a line that goes more up. Problem solved!
Notably, an esthetically pleasing line!
Can your esthetics be reduced into a number so we can put it in a line?
Yeah, didn’t thing so…
Now, get some philosopher to understand that “meta-kpi” thing. Where does it end? Where does it start? And make them reduce both to a number so we can use their work.
We gotta have an economy to function as a society but the rub of economics in the West is that if it acknowledged why the economy functions the way it does, it would be peeling the facade off our supposedly democratic system of governance and folks would start taking a much keener interest in why wealth is getting so concentrated. We can’t have that, so instead we get increasingly elaborate versions of economic Lamarckism and the field’s Darwins are ostracized as cranks.
One may draw upon the dark arts with any degree. -BA in Film, make ads
I remember joking to my philosophy teacher that my first choice for a major was business but…
Yeah lol fuck those entitled popped collar frat shitheads that were born into wealth and have zero compassion, oh and did I mention their racism
